Ending Toxic Hustle Culture with Josephine Rudolf

Sarah: 00:00:06

Hello there and thank you for joining us for another episode of the SEO Mindset podcast where your hosts are myself, Sarah McDowell, and my fabulous co host, Tazmin Suleman. Now, this week we are talking about toxic hustle culture, and I am joined by the wonderful Josephine Rudolf. Now this is such a cracking episode because we go into detail about toxic hustle culture. We explain what it is, how easy it is to get sucked in, and reasons why it is bad, not just because of our mental health, well being and physical health as well, but there's other things that it can have a negative impact on, which we discuss and go into detail about. We also give you strategies, easy to implement strategies to help you avoid getting sucked into this culture. And we focus on the importance of hobbies. So having hobbies that have nothing to do with your with your work, career, industry, the SEO industry, and me and Josephine talk about some of the hobbies that we have and how they help us have a better work life balance. So yeah, I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. Who is Josephine? Josephine is a junior sao manager at Bathurst. She has always been passionate about marketing and has worked in the field for over three years. Throughout those three years, she has been at six companies gathering lots of experience. Unfortunately, both terrible but great as well. And with that knowledge in hand, she aims to help others, especially when it comes to confidence and upholding boundaries with employers. While she loves her job, her true passion is writing fiction, which she talks about more on the podcast episode. So before we get into this week's episode, just a reminder of how you can support us. So if you enjoy what me and Tazmin are doing, why not give us a one off donation? So we're set up on buy me a coffee, which is a platform which allows creators like me and Tazmin to accept one off payments. So if you would like to do that, follow the link in our show notes. And we also have a newsletter. So why not sign up and get regular updates about what me and Tazmin are doing, what's going on with the podcast, and you can unsubscribe at any time, right? Without further ado, let's get into this week's episode. Hello, Josephine, and a very warm welcome to the SEO Mindset podcast. How are we doing?

Josephine: 00:02:51

I'm doing great. Really happy to be here. How are you?

Sarah: 00:02:55

I'm fabulous. I'm absolutely fabulous because we've known each other for a while now. Don't know how long it's been, but we're part of the amazing women in tech SEO community that is founded and ran by areaj Abu Ali. And yeah, we've. There's different things that we do together. We both go to the book club. We've been chitchatting. There's other bits and bobs as well. And it's just so lovely that we found a time and space for you to come on the podcast and I'm very excited to have you here.

Josephine: 00:03:31

Yeah, I'm so excited as well. I still remember, I think around a year ago we talked about the podcast and now I'm here.

Sarah: 00:03:37

So yeah, it's great, exciting times. And after this one, there'll be no stopping you, right? There'll be Josephine here, there and everywhere.

Josephine: 00:03:47

That is the plan.

Sarah: 00:03:49

Wonderful, wonderful. And you did tell me that. So you've got a cat and you've had to bribe the cat because they're usually a bit vocal, is that correct?

Josephine: 00:04:00

Yes. Actually it was her birthday yesterday. Yesterday she made it to 14 and she is very vocal because we forgot to sing happy birthday and now I had to bribe.

Sarah: 00:04:12

To be fair, I do feel that cats have a certain sass about them.

Josephine: 00:04:18

Yes, I love that.

Sarah: 00:04:19

Do you know what I mean?

Josephine: 00:04:20

Absolutely love that. Because I'm in the office with a lot of dogs and I love my dog colleagues, but I really appreciate the attitude and the sales and the personality that a cat brings. Like if my cat likes you, that's a compliment. If a dog likes you, it's normal.

Sarah: 00:04:40

Dogs aren't pussy, cats are. And it's a fairly new role, isn't it? Barfiz? Is that right?

Josephine: 00:04:47

Yes, yes, it's Barfurs and yeah, I've started around six weeks ago and there are a lot of dogs and in general animal lovers because it is a pet food brand so it's, yeah, very pet friendly.

Sarah: 00:05:03

Do you get any discount? Do you get free samples?

Josephine: 00:05:07

Yes, I get a big employee discount actually on like all the food, which is really great because my cat likes it. So that's good.

Sarah: 00:05:15

Win win for everyone.

Josephine: 00:05:16

Yeah.

Sarah: 00:05:17

So as much as we probably love talking about animals, and I'm sure some of our audience love animals, that is not what this podcast is about and that is not what we're talking about today. So when you approached me and you wanted to be on the podcast, I was like, hell yes. Let's sort this out, let's get you on because you're fabulous and you do awesome stuff in the industry and space. But I love that I, that you came to us with. So you sort of wanted to talk about how there is this toxic hustle culture. Yeah. And how it's so easy for us to get involved in it because you end up seeing what people are doing in the industry. Good stuff, lovely stuff, wonderful stuff. But I think it feeds into this toxic hustle culture where you always need to be hustling and there's your worth comes with that as well. So I think this is such an important topic because this is so important, it's going to be really relevant and resonate with a lot of our audience because this toxic hustle culture is going to be linking to so many people's mental health, mental well being, having that work life balance. So hopefully we can have a good talk about it and help people navigate and have a better balance. So to kick us off, Josephine, what does toxic hustle culture mean to you? And would you mind sharing some examples?

Josephine: 00:06:52

I wouldn't mind at all. So to me, toxic hustle culture, obviously, it's a very, very broad thing, but the most important and most defining factors to me are on one hand, like, just the mindset of basically prioritizing work or like the hustle, quote unquote, over everything else. And then there's the cultural aspect. So, like, you basically are engaging in these unhealthy habits and prioritizing work over family, over well being. And then you have those people who are, like, enabling you, cheering you on, or also if you are taking time off, if you are saying, no, I rather go to my son's recital than stay late at the office, then you have some people who are like, well, you're not going to get a promotion. So I think those are the really defining factors for the toxic hustle culture because I feel like the mindset is one thing, but what really makes it into a culture is that there's a group of people who cheer each other on and tear each other down. So in an example with basic, there are so many, but I think usually toxic hustle culture is focused more on people who have their own businesses. But I think there is like a huge toxic culture also with office workers or anyone who's employed basically can fall into that toxic trap. So I have a really good friend of mine, and when he started working, he really got sucked into it. He worked very much over time, and he also had, unfortunately, a lot of managers who were encouraging that behavior. And he lost all hobbies, basically, and didn't take care of his health. And also it got worse. Like, I didn't see him as much. And also he didn't talk to his family as much. And obviously that was not good. But then there were those managers, unfortunately, who also encouraged him by basically, he had so much overtime, like, it was really at least 10 hours a week extra during a full time job. And those managers were almost giving it, like, recognition, like a badge of honor. And there was a very toxic environment at the whole office. It was like, it was basically a competition. Who has the most overtime, which I think is a very good example of that whole toxic culture, because then we also had outside people who gave him also recognition for that, who were like, oh, yeah, you're working really hard. You have all that overtime, so good.

Sarah: 00:09:25

And it's so hard, isn't it? And it's really easy to get sucked into because I remember so early on in my career, one of the first places that I worked, there was this toxic work environment that you're talking about. And it was even though you were. I was paid to work nine till 530. And don't get me wrong, there might be times where, I don't know, there's some sort of project or a work or a task or something that happens that means that you stay later or you're a few minutes either side. But again, it was more than that. Like, you were seen to be not taking your job as seriously for turning up when you are paid to work and leaving at a time. And my boss would definitely, they would sort of brag about how many hours they've done, and they'd be like, ah, I've been in the office since 06:00 this morning, and I won't finish until I probably 09:00 tonight. And it is a funny one. And it's so sad, isn't it? Because unfortunately, I think in some businesses and in some industries, how well you're doing and how well you want to progress is tied with how much work you're doing. And it's so sad because, like you say, it puts a lot of pressure on us. And it's. And at the end of the day, yes, we spend a lot of our time at work, but there needs to be a healthy balance because you still need to have a life. Do you know what I mean? You need to prioritize your well being. And I think the sad thing is, it is part of culture, isn't it? And there is this expectation, 100%.

Josephine: 00:11:12

I think it's also, it doesn't make sense. It's to a degree illogical, because I think studies have shown that if you're constantly overworking yourself, it does to burnout, and then you're not working at all. I mean, even if we take aside all the mental health and well being things that go down the drain, if we just look at a work aspect, it's not productive because nobody can uphold that, for it's not sustainable because your quality goes down. And if you do, you stay so late and come really early and you do that for a consistent amount of time, you're just not going to be fully there and you will not produce as much as you could produce and you're not going to be that productive. And that will lead you into this really vicious cycle. Because if you're only going to work on half a battery, obviously things are going to get slower. And then to hit your target, you will have to overwork. And so you're basically never going to get out of it until you're eventually burned out and then you're really out of it for a long time. So that's what I think is one of the worst aspects about it because obviously I also care about people's well being. But even if you look through the toxic lens, even if your main priority is work, you're still not getting it with that attitude because you, your work will be harmed in the long way.

Sarah: 00:12:28

100%. And I couldn't agree more with you. And through talking about this, it's evident that this toxic hustle culture is going to have an impact on our well being, our mental health, our physical health, our relationships that we have with our family, friends, loved ones. But is there anything else that we need to think about? Is there anything else that has a negative impact or. Yeah, or. Sorry. Is there anything else that this toxic hustle culture has a negative impact on? That's a better way of asking that question.

Josephine: 00:13:03

Yes. I mean, it depends. I mean, well being covers a lot of ground, obviously.

Sarah: 00:13:10

Yeah.

Josephine: 00:13:10

But I would say that it also really harms our self esteem. Or better said, it makes us very vulnerable for people targeting or things targeting our self esteem and our self worth. Because what often happens is that if we only have our work and we say, okay, everything else takes a backseat, then we only, obviously self love. Self worth should be intrinsic, but we do live in a world, we're not in a vacuum. So if we only have our work, then that's the only place we can take our confidence from. That's the only take place we can take our self worth from. So then it's very quick to go down a very dark path. Because if I have a very unbalanced life and I prioritize work over everything, and then something goes wrong. Like recently there have been so many layoffs, or maybe it's not even a layoff, maybe you just have a really, like a project goes wrong or you have a bad day with a client, then you feel like you have a bad life. Because if work is your entire life, and then as soon as something goes wrong, your entire life feels bad and you feel like, wow, I didn't do good at work, I am worthless, which obviously isn't right, but that, I think you're way much more vulnerable to that. And also kind of comparable, a little bit like a toxic workplace with like, coupled with toxic mindset where you prioritize work almost is like a toxic partner because often they try to isolate you and then, because then you have no one. And I think if you isolate yourself and also if your toxic workplace contributes to it, then you also have nothing else. Because then I think you're more willing to put up with negative things and toxic habits at work because you have nowhere else to go. You have nowhere. You feel like that's your only place. And then also I, luckily, when I was in bad work environments, I always had my support system who was telling me, hey, josie does not ride. And I feel like if I would have neglected them, it is like if I never talked to them, they wouldn't see that you're doing unwell. So I think that's a really big thing.

Sarah: 00:15:28

Yeah, 100%. And it's so hard when you are so stuck in a situation or you've kind of got tunnel vision. I don't know if that's the right way of explaining that, but it's hard to sort of take yourself out of it and actually see how toxic it is. And then some people, if, if their loved ones or friends or family can see that it's having a negative impact on them and they try and bring it up, then they might end up getting defensive because like you say, you tie yourself where your self worth and with your work. Yeah. And that sense of belonging, and it's so true. It's so true. And if you don't take a step back and allow yourself to not be so defined by that, then when things go wrong, and working in SEO, things are going to go wrong all the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, how many times does Google announce a new core algorithm update? Or how many times does something happen on a website and it has a negative impact on traffic? Or on the flip side, if, again, if you're all about SEO, you're all about your work, if you then follow and see what other people are doing in the industry. You're then going to compare yourself. And then again, that's a bit of your self esteem loss because you might think, crikey, they're doing all of this stuff and I'm not. So it all kinda feeds into each other, doesn't it?

Josephine: 00:17:06

100%. And also, I like that you brought up comparison, because I feel like it also makes comparison a lot worse. Because if I only see myself as an SAO manager, obviously I'm going to compare myself to SEO managers. But if I see myself as a whole person who is a granddaughter, who's a wife, who's a hobby, ballet dancing, who is an SAo as well, then I know that obviously there's still comparison and we need to work on not doing that. But I can't compare myself to any other Sao because, yes, I don't care if they're a better Sao. I know, maybe they don't bake cake for their grandma as often. It's very trivial. But I think if we see ourselves as whole beings, then we're not as quick to compare to others because they're whole beings as well, and we're so different.

Sarah: 00:17:52

And you say that it's trivial, but it's not at the end of the day, because you baking a cake for your grandparent, for example, that's important because you're showing up for someone in your life and actually baking something is really satisfying. I mean, I'm an awful baker. I'm better at cooking because you don't have to follow rules. And you have led me nicely into taking a short break. Because part two, we'll be talking about what we can do about this toxic hustle culture. And the big thing that we get focused on is having hobbies, right? And doing things that are outside of that SEO vacuum, as we're calling it. So, yeah, let's take a short break, and when we are back, we'll get into all of that. We'll give you strategies, and we'll talk about the hobby side. Before I do that, Josephine, is there anything else that you want to say before we do that?

Josephine: 00:18:53

No, not really.

Sarah: 00:18:55

No, that's fine. That's fine. We've covered it. We've covered a lot. So let's take that short break, give people time to ingest what they've heard. We'll have a short breather and, yeah, hopefully you'll join us. Back for part two. We're back for part two. Did you enjoy that short break, Josephine?

Josephine: 00:19:11

Yes, a lot. I enjoyed my water.

Sarah: 00:19:14

It's very important to keep yourself hydrated.

Josephine: 00:19:18

Yes. Especially now that the temperatures are rising. It is really underrated how much it aids your productivity to be, well hydrated.

Sarah: 00:19:26

There you go. Maybe that's another conversation. Maybe we need to get you back on the podcast to discuss hydration. But anyway, let's continue with what we've been talking about. So, in part one, we were talking about this toxic hustle culture, giving examples, discussing why it's bad for us. All those different angles. So, shall we fix it for our listeners?

Josephine: 00:19:51

With pleasure.

Sarah: 00:19:53

Okay, so fixing this toxic work. Hustle. That wasn't right. Toxic work. Why is my brain gone? Toxic hustle culture. There we go. So, one of the most obvious ways that we can fix this is having hobbies. Yeah. Having something that takes you away from your work. So, Josephine, you've already mentioned ballet. Yeah. Is there any other hobbies or anything else that you'd like to share with our audience?

Josephine: 00:20:29

Yes, actually, ballet is a really recent addition, but my long time hobby is writing, writing fiction and poetry. And, yeah, it's been with me for a very long time. So I think it's also really good to have these two hobbies, because one is physical and one is creative. So, I mean, obviously, having even more hobbies is also great. But, yeah, so that's really nice to get my mind off things and have on one side, this physical outlet and the other side also this creative outlet, although ballet also is creative of.

Sarah: 00:21:05

But it's also physical, and it's. So I think it was. I was listening to a podcast by the one on truly, Michelle Obama. So Michelle was being interviewed by someone. I can't remember who off the top of my head, but what they said was, obviously being Michelle, you're gonna have a lot on your mind all the time. And what she said is, she obviously had to do stuff for her mental health, for her mental well being. She needed a hobby. She needed to do something that would allow her brain to switch off a little bit or allow her brain to focus on something. And she got into it was either knitting or crocheting. Yeah. Because when you are knitting, when you're doing something physical like that, you have to think about what you're doing. So she was said it was a great way for them to be able to switch off. Yeah. I'm sure Michelle Obama's going to listen to this podcast episode, so. Hi, Michelle. Michelle. Like, we're best mates, but, you know, but also, what she said is having a hobby like that, you're actually creating something. So you can see something that you've created. Yeah. So a little bit different to. Well, I suppose with writing, you've got something to show for at the end. But ballet, that is. Again, you can progress. Yeah. And you're doing something fun. You're doing something to release those endorphins. But when I listened to Michelle Obama, I was like, I'm gonna get into Lego. So that's my, that's my thing. I got into Lego with my partner at Christmas. We made a Lego Christmas tree. And then for Valentine's day in February, she bought me flowers. Technically, I had to make them myself, so I had a little bit of, like, a bit. No, it was fun. And. Yeah, and again, because my brain is on all the time and I'm always thinking, always, like, I need to be doing all of this stuff. I was like, I need to do stuff to take myself away. So one of the things that I do is Lego.

Josephine: 00:23:18

That's really good to know. I will ask you later for some Lego tips because I actually also thought about doing some Lego ing with my partner.

Sarah: 00:23:26

But, yeah, it's good.

Josephine: 00:23:29

I can really see how the stresses here because I also, I really think it's so important because I think our minds are always on and I can't speak farther fields, but especially in SEO and marketing in general, I feel like we always have ideas because whenever you come across your. Browse in your private time and you come across a website and it has really good CTA, for example, and then you're like, oh, well, how could I, you know, put that for my business? Or when we see something like some internal links or like a structure or just watching an ad, it's like, oh, that's interesting. So I think it's really, really important to have things where we can just shut our minds off and just focus on, like, one building blog at a time or, like, getting your leg higher in the air. Yeah. Doing something creative of, like, writing. And I also think it's really, really nice to have something to show for because I've been published a few times with, like, shorter works, and sometimes it's, most of time it's online because obviously we're living in 2024, but sometimes it's physical. And I really cherish those moments when I can have something physical in my hand and I can show people. This is my writing. So, yeah, I think that adds something.

Sarah: 00:24:49

And obviously it's important, right? Because we're saying that having a hobby allows you to step away, you have fun, you've got something to show for it. But it's also you're working on yourself, you're investing in yourself, because if you're learning a new skill, if you're learning something new, then you're going to develop it as a person. And I'm not saying that everything should be about developing yourself, because have a break. You know, if a hobby is, I don't know, you just have regular massages. You do that, you do you. But if you can invest in yourself and develop a new skill, then that's going to be fabulous. And I think as well. So first with Michelle, but I remember there was some sort of research or study done where those that learnt to play an instrument or learnt another language. So you're good here. Josephine Chick. It prevents the chances of getting dementia or Alzheimer's when you're older. I don't know if you've heard that stat or.

Josephine: 00:25:59

Yes, I've actually heard that. And I think I've also seen other research indicating that also other things, not only like instruments and language, I also read that it also works with things like dance, where you also need to coordinate a lot that that also helps to prevent dementia. So it's really so many benefits of having a hobby. But what I also think is, well, you wouldn't immediately think of it as a benefit, but what I've recently discovered is that hobbies can also, if they're challenging, help you build up your tolerance for failure, because especially if you're perfectionist. And I think people who are either in the toxic hustle culture mindset or are very close to going off there have to deal a lot with perfectionism because I, for myself, I'm very perfectionist and I struggle a lot with, like, failure or even not real failure, but, like, just something going wrong or you're not being perfect. And actually, ballet has helped me tremendously with that because obviously, with such a hard sport, you're not immediately good. And the first lessons were really hard because I have a really nice teacher who gives a lot of corrections, but obviously that bruises your ego in the first bit. But that actually helped me grow not only in my ballet world, but also professionally because it gave me a higher tolerance for, like, failure or things just not going the right perfect to way. And I think that's really important because we, when we look at this toxic mindset, it's basically you need to be the best. You need to be 100% on all the time. And when we have a hobby, we basically have, like, the, like, permission to be bad at something because that's also a huge misconception that I would like to clear up is, like, you do not need to be good at a hobby that's completely. I don't know who started that rumor. You don't need to be good. You need to have fun. You need to want to do it. You don't need to be good. Like, that's what you have a job for. I'm good at Sao, like ballet. I do for fun. I don't care if I'm good.

Sarah: 00:28:07

That's 100%. And resilience is an important one. It's okay to fail, and I know that fail is a bit of a tricky word for some people, but it's life. Things aren't always going to go to plan, and you're 100% true. And you don't. Don't restrict your hobbies to what you know that you're going to be good at. Like, for example, there was a time when I was younger where I did singing lessons. I can't sing at all. I'm not the next Beyonce or anything like that, but again, it was a bit of fun, something that me and my friend did together, so 100% agree. So how would you recommend to our audience that they fit hobbies? How do you make time for it? So how can they fit it into their life?

Josephine: 00:28:56

So, first of all, I would really take time and effort to figure out what hobbies really work for me. Like, what hobbies are right for me because I've noticed it with myself, but also with my partner. When you just pick a hobby that you think makes sense, like, for example, going to the gym because you feel like, oh, yeah, that's what society wants, right? Like, I'm going to the gym. I'm productive, and, like, I mean, for some people, it's really great. They really get their mind of things. But for me and also for my partner, it's just a thing we do to stay healthy, but it's not really a hobby. So both hobby, like, now, when we, like, found hobby, and it was really hard to get ourselves to do it and incorporate it into our lives, but now that we both individually found hobbies that we really super passionate about, I'm much more inclined to actually do them and take the time. So I would say, like, dig deep and actually look around and also try new things. Like, I've started ballet at, like, 21, and I've wanted to do it since I was little, so I could have obviously stuck to the things I already know how to do, but I'm like, no, I wanted to try something new. So. And don't be afraid to try something like, there's no commitment. If you go and try, if you want to try ballet and after the first lesson, you're like, nope, this is not nice. I can't relax here. I don't want to do it. Then there is no commitment. It's fine. Most classes or clubs offer a reduced price or a free first lesson because that's just how it is. Sometimes things don't work out for you. I think that helps a lot to have something that you actually really want to do then. The second thing that I think is really important in incorporating it into our life is we make it non negotiable. Because I think as professionals, when we have deadlines, when we have meetings, we do show up, but then for ourselves, we don't show up as much. And I think that's very sad and we should work on that. And I think we should really. Obviously, it's great when you have something like a sport or ballet where you have set appointments, because, like, classes do keep you accountable. But even if it's not a class, even if it is something like writing or anything you do by yourself, like, you can either have a really set time, just treat it like any other meeting and hold yourself responsible. And really, if you say, okay, from six to seven, I will write, then treat it like you would any other meeting. But I know for some people that doesn't work, especially when you have very unstructured work days. So for those I would recommend to have a set goal. Like for example, I have implemented writing 500 words a day and that has really helped me stick to it, even because I'm not very good with set times, especially if I know my heart, they're not real, I will never get myself to do it. But what has worked for me is just 500 words a day. And sometimes I've written them in the middle of the night, but I have written them and I was happy after. And if you keep doing it, obviously sleep is important, but if you keep doing it, you will also find times to do it. That's really important.

Sarah: 00:32:11

Love all that. I love all that. And just to add, you don't have to stick at a hobby either. So as you were talking about the different hobbies and trying stuff, I got thinking about all the stuff that I've tried in my past that I've not necessarily stuck with. So in the past I've tried pole dancing and I got to grade one, which was good fun, but I don't do that anymore. There was a time where I played roller derby again, it was great at the time, but now I don't do that anymore. My latest thing is kickboxing. Yeah. And I've been doing that for a couple of years. A little bit different to ballet because I have a dancing background. So fun fact, studied dance at uni and my coach always jokes with me and says, oh, you're being too dancy. Stop making it dancy. Go on, hit me. And I'm like, oh, okay. But yeah, you don't have to stick at these things. And I'm loving it now and I'm sticking at it and I'm committed to it. And like you say, I've got accountability because it's a one to one session. We book them in. So if I don't turn up, that's a bit bad, isn't it? So yeah, any way that you can have accountability, find something that you love, find someone to do it with as well because I find that helps. If you can. Like obviously it's great. If you can have independence and do something for you, that's great. But if you need someone to help you along, like ask a friend, your loved one, family member, partner, ask them to come along with you because it might help you get over those nerves of trying something new.

Josephine: 00:33:52

100% resonates a lot because I think a lot of people, they are more hesitant to try something new because they feel like there's this expectation that if I go to one kickboxing lesson that now I will have to become someone who does that regularly. But you really don't. You can try it and even if you already have done it for like a year or more, you can still change it. You are free to choose and pick and choose and change it. And another thing that I think is really important is to not let societal expectations dictate what hobbies you choose. Because for a long time I always wanted to pick hobbies. Like for example, I always wanted to force myself to be a very avid reader, but that just never happened for me. And I still read sometimes, but I'm just not forcing myself because also we only have like a certain amount of willpower each day. So I would really advise against choosing a hobby that you need to force yourself to because you only have so much willpower. And if you already spend it on going to the gym at six in the morning, then later in the day when you have to make a tough client call, you're not going to have the willpower anymore to get yourself to do it. So just work with yourself. I think, sadly, nowadays we work so many times. We work against our, like, nature, we work against our body. And I think it's important to, like, listen to ourselves and also question ourselves sometimes just because we have been doing a certain routine for so long, does it still serve me? Like, maybe I've been going to the gym every morning, but do I take pleasure from this, or do I just feel like I have to do this because I'm not against physical activity? I think it's very important, but there are so many ways. If you don't want to go on a treadmill, you can go hiking and see beautiful nature. So I think you should not box yourself in because it's just. Yeah, I think that's a big issue. Just people, like, confining themselves into your box, and then you're unhappy in that box. But you need to remember, you are the one who put yourself in that box. You can go out of the box.

Sarah: 00:35:58

Break that box open. Everyone, I think, is what you're saying. Wonderful. Well, I'm very sorry, Josephine, but we are rapidly running out of time. This has been a corker of an episode, and I'm so appreciative to you for coming on and talking about such a important topic. Now, there are set questions that we always ask our guests, and I need to make sure that I fit. Squeeze these in. So, first things first. What is the main key takeaway from today's episode?

Josephine: 00:36:35

I would say that a great career and a great life are not mutually exclusive. You can have a great life, and in that great life, you can have a great career. You do not need to choose at all. There are many great people with great careers who have great private life. So it can even benefit you. Like, we talk, there are a lot of things you learn from it. So that's the biggest thing.

Sarah: 00:36:57

You need to get that on a t shirt.

Josephine: 00:36:59

I'm trying.

Sarah: 00:37:01

What is the best bit of career advice that you've ever received?

Josephine: 00:37:07

Actually, it's been pretty recent, but it has been that the probation period is mutual. Not only is the company testing if you're the right fit, but you're also testing if the company is the right fit. And I've only learned that recently, so that was really eye opening for me because it really changed my mindset. And that also really helps with the whole topic of, like, having a life outside of my career. It's like, does this job fit into my life? Because, for example, I could never have a job that's five days a week in office because then I couldn't fit my private life. So I think it's really important to see it in general, to have confidence as like an employee that you also have you have rights and you have the choice. You're just not begging companies for a job. It's mutually beneficial. That's really good advice.

Sarah: 00:37:58

Yeah. That's great advice. And definitely so if any of our listeners, if you are coming up to the end of a probation period, take time to reflect. Yeah. Have a think. Reflect. Does the job tick the boxes for you? Unfortunately, I don't think. I think it's idealistic that you'll have a job that ticks all of your boxes because. Yeah, but what are your non negotiables? And you've already mentioned that. Yeah. So what are the things that you can compromise on? And what are the things that you can't compromise on? So, for example, Josephine, you can't compromise on not being able the flexibility to work from home. Yeah. So that is corking. Corking advice. That doesn't even make any sense. I think I was trying to say two things at the same time. Cracking, cracking advice. You insert whatever adjective you want in there and then my last question to you is, who is someone to follow right now because they're doing awesome stuffs?

Josephine: 00:39:02

I can advise everyone, especially in SEO, to follow Lily Ray because whenever there's a core update or anything Google happening, I look to her, I look at her super cool analysis and I understand it. But also she's a great example for this episode because not only is she doing amazing in her career, but she's also djing on side, so it can be done. You can be amazing in your career. You can have a hobby.

Sarah: 00:39:29

Proof, proof, proof right there. Wonderful. Well, what we'll make sure that we'll do is we will link in the show notes to where you can find Lee Ray. And while I am on this subject, obviously we'll have your bio, Josephine, and your links in the show notes. But where would you recommend people find you and carry the conversation on with you? Where are you?

Josephine: 00:39:56

You can definitely find me on LinkedIn because I'm not a huge social media person, but LinkedIn, I'm very active. And if you have any more questions about hobbies or how to incorporate them into your job, just send me a message.

Sarah: 00:40:10

Right. Well, that is, sadly all that we have time for. I would just like to remind listeners that if you do enjoy SEO Mindset podcast and you appreciate what me and Tazmin are doing, there are ways that you can support us. So for example we are on buy me a coffee. So buy me a coffee is a place where you can donate a one off payment to creators such as me and Tazmin. So if you fancy giving us a one off donation, that would be fabulous. There is a link in the show notes and Brighton SEO is coming up. Me and Tazmin will be in person, so if we get enough donations, who knows, we might be able to treat ourselves to coffee and cake in Brighton. Who knows? And the newsletter. So we have a regular newsletter that goes out if you want to be part of that. So be coming on our newsletter. You get updates about episodes, anything else that me and Tazmin are up to. We promise never to spam you. We only give you stuff that's interesting and you can unsubscribe at any time, which I'm sure you're not going to want to do because, you know. Anyway, link in the show notes for that and the only thing left to say is goodbye from me and goodbye from Josephine and take care, everyone.